Radio Front Desk
Radio Front Desk is a podcast that talks to real people in real clinics about what it takes to build a health and wellness business.
Host Denzil Ford, Editor-in-Chief of Front Desk magazine, digs into the inspiring stories of folks building their practices from the ground up — including what works, what hasn’t, and everything in between.
Created by the team at Jane App, this podcast is your source for discovering fresh ideas and proven strategies for clinic life. Join us on this journey of building a practice you love.
Radio Front Desk
Does better always mean faster? | Owners of Vitae Health & Sport talk sustainable business growth
In the world of business, many people say faster is better. More clients means more profit, and growth is good. While this advice works for some, it’s a notion Eric Vermander and his wife Caroline King are constantly pushing against.
Owners of Vitae Health & Sport in North Vancouver, Eric and Caroline are a husband-wife duo running their clinic for the long haul. They’ve taken a slower, yet intentional approach with their clinic, allowing them to craft a collaborative staff culture and a clinic experience that clients are organically attracted to.
In this episode, we talk about what practicing patience looks like in business and the hard work that goes into bringing your vision to life.
To check out more stories like Eric and Caroline's, head to frontdesk.jane.app.
Vitae Health & Sport is the result of a blend of ideas, experiences, and a shared vision. Caroline King grew up in the friendly Midwest, earning her degree in mass communication from Miami University in Ohio. She sharpened her organizational skills in New York City's advertising scene before pursuing a Master's of Education from Loyola University Baltimore. Ready for a new challenge, she embraced the entrepreneurial spirit.
Dr. Eric Vermander grew up in Ottawa, Ontario, and turned his passion for sports and cycling into a career while studying Human Kinetics at the University of Ottawa. All along, he spent over 14 years in the sports retail industry. His journey led him from the Canadian Rockies to the University of Western States in Portland, Oregon, where he pursued chiropractic medicine. He continued to gain valuable clinical experience in Vancouver, British Columbia for a decade.
Together, as a couple with a daughter in tow, they opened Vitae Health & Sport in North Vancouver in 2019. Since then, they’ve focused on cultivating relationships, growing their business, and becoming a trusted part of the community—all while learning and evolving along the way.
In this episode
This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered as professional medical, legal, or financial advice. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the guests and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Jane or Front Desk magazine.
It takes time and you know, like getting the right staff on board, getting the right practitioners recognizing that we're a brand new company in a space that doesn't know us. So, just being patient, that it will happen and if you really believe in what you're doing and have a passionate person that you're working with, on board like that. We just had to stay on that patient path and continue on.
Speaker 3:In the world of business, many people say faster is better, more clients means more profit and growth is good. While this advice works for some, it's a notion that Eric Vermander and his wife, carolyn King, are constantly pushing against. Owners of Vitae Health and Sport in North Vancouver. Eric and Carolyn are a husband and wife duo running their clinic. For the long haul. They've taken a slower yet intentional approach with their growth, allowing them to create a collaborative staff culture and a clinic experience that clients are organically attracted to. In this episode, we talk about what practicing patients looks like in business and the hard work that goes into bringing your vision to life, and we also talk about their incredible fish tank.
Speaker 3:Welcome to Radio Front Desk, a show that surfaces what real people in real clinics are doing to open, run and grow successful health and wellness businesses. I'm your host, denzel Ford, editor-in-chief of Front Desk Magazine by JNAP. Here we have powerful conversations with health and wellness professionals on the business side of clinic life. We hear their stories and discover what works and how to do it, and we also talk about what doesn't work. If you want to check out more stories like this, head to frontdeskjaneapp. So I have something I've never told you, that I'm going to tell you right now. So you're talking about a magazine inspiring your design, which I think is so fascinating, because when I pitched Front Desk Magazine to the leadership of Jane, I used your clinic as the cover shot because it's so beautiful and clean and it has like that concrete element and the chairs and everything.
Speaker 3:So yeah, you guys helped me in a way you didn't even know we didn't. That's so exciting.
Speaker 1:What an honor, thank you. So yeah, you guys helped me in a way.
Speaker 2:you didn't even know we did, yeah, and you know, for some of the, the colors and the design, you know I have to turn to Caroline because she certainly curated and picked and set things up and it was really, um, she picked up on things that I, I didn't, and it's a team effort we work together. Who's responsible for the?
Speaker 1:fish tank. You know, there was a man that owned a little fish shop right behind us, like a aquarium, and he came to us and he said hey, I'm trying to grow my Can I put a tank in? I'll take care of it for you. Oh, wow. And we were like, that's awesome, let's do it, put it in. And then he moved and so now Eric's in charge of the fish tank, I'm in charge of the fish tank.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so yeah, exactly, and that's part of that atmosphere or feeling of you know we've got something living over here and functioning, so it was a it's a nice addition. Yeah, I'm glad we have it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I love it personally, even when I don't have my kids. I love it Cause it's just, you're right, it's like a nice little something extra, but obviously the kids also. It gives them something to do while they're waiting a little bit Right? Oh yeah, exactly, imp. They're waiting a little bit, right?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, exactly, if they're impatient we're, like, you know, for the little little kids. Oh, how many fish can you find, you know? Did you, did you see the blue one? You know there's some shrimp crawling around, and so it gives them a little something which helps maybe set the tone for their parents or their caregivers. Um, you know, visit, they can relax and yeah, so how?
Speaker 3:let's get into the meat of it. How did you go from being a chiropractor and then deciding that you wanted to open your own business? Can you talk about that decision a little bit?
Speaker 2:Yeah, the. I was an independent contractor, working in an established clinic for 10 years, and I'd always had the, I guess, the vision and idea of owning you know, my own place or our own place, and having you know and having it set up exactly how I would like it, and to have the freedom to do different things, and so it was a goal early on, and so once we I mean, this was something during school that was.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:This wasn't a Once you're in the working work workforce I want to do this for myself you knew when you were in school.
Speaker 2:I'm going to do this yeah, there was an exercise in a class, maybe second year, where they said write down on a piece of paper newspaper how do you see your practice in the future? And I've pretty much done what I wrote down 20 years ago. So that was kind of an interesting exercise and that can always change too, right. As we gain experience in different types of clinics and put it together, and here we are yeah.
Speaker 3:So where? Where were you when you like, took the first effort to actually do it? What were you like, how did? How did that moment go?
Speaker 1:I'm trying to remember Well you know seven years ago right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, maybe seven or eight years ago we started. You know, we had the conversation because I knew that I couldn't do it by myself, so I had to. You know, we had to talk about the level of commitment and the cost, and you know how things might, you know, grow over time, how things might grow over time, and so we had to. We started with probably a cup of coffee and went from there.
Speaker 1:It was right in the beginning. It was more fun. Like, ooh, let's do this, that'd be fun. Just what is this going to look like?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was exciting. Yeah, it was an exciting time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then it was more oh, let's look at real estate. Oh, this is really hard. Oh, let's look at real estate. Oh, this is really hard. Oh, let's figure out someone. Oh, we have a friend who could design this space.
Speaker 2:She'll do it for us.
Speaker 1:Then we met with her and she was like this is much bigger than what I could do this is not in my wheelhouse.
Speaker 2:We're like oh, okay, we need to find someone who can design this. Like it really there's a lot of detail. Yeah, that comes out from that first idea. Yeah, and so you know it was um. It was an exciting, you know, journey to unlock the door that first day, but it was a lot of work yeah yeah, because we were designing from an a raw space, an an empty space.
Speaker 3:Interesting, and so you did end up hiring another designer. Is that right? We did.
Speaker 1:We ended up hiring a friend's brother.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he was an architect.
Speaker 1:Yeah, was he at the time. I think he was in design school.
Speaker 2:Yes, industrial, well, architectural design, maybe not a full licensed architect but and he did do some other courses in, you know, Scandinavia on wood and he was, but he his, he had the skills to do the drawings and to get very talented. Yeah, To work with us and to you know, figure out how to maximize this, this space yeah.
Speaker 3:So what's going on? Okay, there's a lot in my head. So you are, you've, you've signed a lease, you've opened the door with the key, you have this designer, someone has to do the work, and then you have to also plan all the stuff for, like, once it's ready to go. All this is happening at the same time.
Speaker 1:I'm imagining it's more of a puzzle right like it was like, okay, we kind of had some big check boxes that we knew were going to come, but we couldn't do those until we got through certain things. So really it was okay, find a space. We actually had found a different space that we really liked, and it just ended up the one over in East Van and that it just didn't make sense.
Speaker 3:It felt forced, and so we so just to let people know East Van is we're in North Van and that East Van is like across, on a different part of the city. I'll just say that and that's enough.
Speaker 2:Yeah for sure. So, yeah, so you know, we had once we had our design, then we worked with and we met with three different builders, general contractors and, you know, picked the best fit for us and it was someone whose office was in North Vancouver and, you know, had already done work in the same building in North Vancouver and had already done work in the same building and there were some interesting elements of the building that they had experience with. So it was very helpful and so we were able to. They held our hand in terms of the build-out process and um away and gave us options and, you know, kept us up to date and um, you know, the um there's a lot of cost and so having the banking side of things organized as well, and we met with three different banks with our business plan and put it all together and we were just, you know, picking the best fit for us to help us reach our goals and right um, but it was a process and it took time.
Speaker 2:It took longer than we thought, but I think most projects do right.
Speaker 1:And then there's permitting, right. So then all of a sudden like okay, I think we're good. Oh no, we can't, we need a business license, right. So it it took a lot longer than I expected to get that piece of paper. Then we could say now, here we go. But I do remember when we finally said here we go, we're open, let it happen. Okay, we're waiting. It's something that I've really seen with new practitioners who have just graduated and they're like super keen and we're ready to start. And it just reminds me who have just graduated and they're like super keen and we're ready to start.
Speaker 2:And it just reminds me of when we opened.
Speaker 1:It's like I know, but you've got to be patient.
Speaker 2:It's gonna take a little while to grow right and right and on that, new practitioners need to be engaged in the community and to have their you know those interactions and to have those interactions and to grow their clientele by being out there and it's not just sit twiddle your thumbs and wait. So that's important and there's a number of businesses that we have been in touch with and the referrals from patient to patient and from other practitioners. You know, that's just grown from there.
Speaker 3:Right, I just want to back up a bit to this, this part, where you're, you're getting the business prepared to go, getting it ready to be opened, how, like we like really practical tips and tricks here. So how did you keep track of all of that from a project management perspective? Did you have a google document? Did you like a?
Speaker 1:lot of them actually. Yeah, okay, a lot of checklists. Yeah, uh, you know there would be the business, uh, the actual health care business side of things so just getting up for? Are we going to direct bill? Are we going to be involved with ICDC, the different components that a practitioner could be involved in?
Speaker 2:Yeah, those front desk systems.
Speaker 1:Right, which we were very lucky. Eric had a really great relationship with the people at his other clinic Because he was a practitioner at two different clinics prior to us opening hours, so those people that he worked with were so kind. He said I'm going to come over and just hang out with you and sat with me and I just had a notebook and she's like have you thought about this?
Speaker 2:nope, okay, look into that. What about this Nope Drawing on others' experience? Yeah, that was helpful. Are we going to?
Speaker 1:accept credit cards. Oh, are we going to accept cash? I mean so many minutiae things, but it had to be. How are we going to play music in the clinic? You know, I mean there's just so many that kind of spiral when you start thinking about it.
Speaker 3:How did you choose the music? What music did you choose the music?
Speaker 1:what music did you choose and how did you choose it? Um, the. So we use spotify and we just have playlists in the front desk. Whoever's working that day put something on and it's. I always thought it would be a little more curated, but it turns out we just need something in the background to fill this right, so yeah, and no commercials.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah yeah, right, so but and I think, that um, it's uncommon to have a song come on. That's not fitting right, you know, we kind of but sometimes, uh, you know it's a walk over, skip that song, or you know that happens.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, that's funny, um. So let's dive into the front desk side of it a little bit more. Like what was, um, what are some of the biggest things that you had to handle to get that all set up? Um, and like what, what's your biggest learning from that?
Speaker 1:yeah, it's such a intense learning curve for someone like myself who hadn't been in any type of a clinic. It was just stories from him coming home talking about how things went, but I kept him that all at arm's length before Vitae, so for me it was like I was in school. It was just starting. From the beginning. It was what is direct billing? What is I mean? I keep talking about that, but like what are all of the people that we want to connect with? What? How much do we want to offer? Right and, and we wanted to offer everything, so it was like, okay, we've got to figure it all out.
Speaker 3:You mean different treatment, treatment types.
Speaker 1:Treatment types. I think, just as far as Billing, when a patient comes to us I don't want to say we don't do that, no matter what it was. I wanted to be able to have a solution, and that has taken me a few years to come to a point where somebody calls in and says oh, I've had this situation, not necessarily with billing, but just physically, and to be able to say I think you need to go to this other person outside of the clinic, right, like that was for me. I just wanted to help and just take care of a patient, start to finish, and sometimes that means they should go somewhere else, right. But for me, going back to that learning part, it was really about the billing, but then also about what we're offering right and just how to be really clear. I think that is really important when people are looking for a clinic and for a solution for their health to be very clear about who our practitioners are, what they offer, setting that setting the expectations right so then we can, you know, meet them and exceed them.
Speaker 2:That's, I think, has been important, and that starts at the front desk you know, it's that phone call, and I don't know who to see this is going on and so a little triage to have a good match and so then we can help them reach their those health care goals that they have. And when I see patients, you know I ask them what their goals are and I said and those are my goals, so we're working together. But anyhow, it certainly was a learning process. I could draw on some of my past business experience with budgeting and hiring and some of these things. But it's been an interesting, you know, blend of learning. And here we are today, you know, growing every year and having fun and still married.
Speaker 1:Still happily married.
Speaker 3:At Jane we often say are we still having fun? That's one of our questions, to make sure that we're on the right track.
Speaker 2:So I love that.
Speaker 3:What do you value in a front desk person? How do you hire for that role? Because I know you do have people at your desk. So how do you make that decision and what are you looking for in someone?
Speaker 1:You know, that's something I've learned as well, because I didn't have any of that background prior to this role. Eric had for years Working in retail, working as a manager. He had done a lot of that interface and interviewing I hadn't. So we'd meet someone and be like, oh, he's great. He's like, well, okay, I'm like, oh, but he, all these different things that I really appreciated. Well, people, not that you didn't appreciate, but you're like that's actually not beneficial for this role. He needs to understand how to work around a computer or she does. So. We've been really blessed with all of our staff. Honestly, they've all brought such different components. We've had people that were experienced at front desk roles and actually taught me things. Well, this is how we've done it at the other clinic. Have you tried this? No, perfect, this is so streamlined. Thank you, I'm embarrassed that we did it differently for the last few years, kind of thing.
Speaker 1:All part of learning, yeah, yeah, but then other ones who have come and said I'm a kinesiology student and I want experience in these environments and that, yeah, both have been equally rewarding. But for sure, being able to nurture somebody, I mean it almost I get emotional talking about it because it's been such a neat experience to see them really passionate about clinic world, right, and I mean it ends up about Vitae and there's been such intense trust, which is so important, right. So trust, motivation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know their personality. You know and their personality. I think that's an obvious, though, but having people that are well-spoken and outgoing, and we're drawn to those and those who presented themselves well from the beginning. We had some people who maybe were not dressed well. There's a couple interviews where it seemed like they just didn't present themselves and it's like, well, they will be the face of the clinic when you know clients come in, you know maybe they have good experience, but they had a very, a lot of negative comments or negative tone, and so it's it was. It's been interesting to meet a lot of different people, um, and we have had some. We have awesome front desk staff that have been around for some time you know that they're there for a long time and that's important.
Speaker 2:You don't want to have continual turnover which then comes into part of the culture, happy, you know, place to work. So that's important, I think, to have both front desk staff but also practitioners, you know, feel appreciated and respected, and to have them be there growing, you know, growing their business, growing our business. That's important and we kind of joke that we've had more staff gatherings than staff meetings, but you know, again, I think that's important to have. You know, those, I don't know that experience, almost that relationship that is not just clock in, clock out, you know, to grow you know to grow together.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, and the nature of our clinic and I think I'm observing a lot of clinics it's not Monday to Friday, 8 to 4, 9 to 5. You know people come in their schedules stagger. You know we have some staff who've never or practitioners who've never met other practitioners because they just never work on the same day. So maybe when we opened I had this expectation like do all this fun stuff, maybe do a trivia night, because everyone will go there after work. Well, some people are never there on that day. So it's just been an interesting component of the culture, trying to kind of be cohesive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and trivia is a lot of fun.
Speaker 3:So that's what goes into. One of these gatherings is trivia, yeah.
Speaker 2:Christmas trivia at Christmas time. We've had a lot of fun, so yeah, that's that's an important part of, yeah, you know, growing and picking the right people and, um, and maintaining and nurturing, you know, the environment. Yeah, um, so that's been important to us, yeah I love it.
Speaker 3:I love when you're talking about hiring, because you're talking about finding signals for what's underneath and it's's something that, to me, is a skill that needs to be learned as someone making a decision on who to hire, and you're talking about, like, what people wear and having that be important.
Speaker 3:It seems like a really obvious one, but it's also easily overlooked unless it's really bad.
Speaker 3:And then when I'm interviewing, I am always looking for negative undertone and you'd be surprised at how often people don't realize that that's what they're coming off as, and I've had a variety of these things happen In my case. Sometimes I actually will give the person the feedback and say, like you're really lovely and I actually think you're really skilled at this job, but like you're speaking poorly of your current or previous situation and I'm like that's something I can't bring into my world. I don't have a capacity to take that so um, but I love that you brought that up because it's such it's it's one of my non-negotiables and to the point where when I even when we're just just starting an interview and like the the banter at the beginning, a lot of ours are online and you know like you get a banter and wait for everyone else to join or whatever. I'm grading that and it's so interesting how often people will actually say something negative in that time, when they think that they're not on, and I'm like, oh no, no, we're on yeah, yeah, exactly yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And and when it's in that casual, like you said, that period of banter, like um, that is, that's a great kind of opportunity, because then there's some of their true characteristics might emerge no healthcare front desk experience over someone who had experience, but too much negative dialogue and commentary and we were like no, we can do this. This personality is.
Speaker 3:I love that you're talking about that example, because it seems so counterintuitive Like we're going to choose someone who doesn't have the experience. It seems so counterintuitive like we're gonna choose someone who doesn't have the experience yeah it seems so counterintuitive, but the the cost of having someone doesn't fit your culture. That doesn't bring light to your life is really heavy it is because then if it doesn't work out, you have to go through that next process of oh for sure, for right.
Speaker 1:It's like kind of projecting a little bit. I fully appreciate that front desk role is not generally a long-term role for people. It tends to be pretty transitory. But I'm okay if I know. I'm not going to have like you're saying, I'm not going to have to be like, oh okay, let's have a conversation about this. No, you can be here for a year, Great.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so let's dive into growth. Once you had your clinic is established, people are coming in the door. What was your approach to growth and what's that story?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we've had excellent growth every year over a year, you know, from the beginning, which is we really appreciate each. You know, each month and each year, part of that culture and with our practitioners. We have 16 practitioners and we didn't start with 16. We had made a conscious decision to grow slowly, which sounds funny, because growing fast, maybe financially, maybe that sounds better. But when it comes to the practitioner experience, we would bring on a massage therapist, one at a time, and once they were full then we could bring on the next and that way they weren't fighting over new clients. And then, once the second was full and with a wait list, we'd bring on the next and we would talk to them.
Speaker 2:We're going to be adding another person. Do you want to change your schedule? Is there anything? So we have these kind of touchstone moments and have this organic, steady but this growth with a good foundation. And so now we have five massage therapists, we have three physiotherapists, and so that was important in terms of growth was to be patient and initially and initially my patient base that had followed me from my previous clinic, that was sustaining the clinic and covering a lot of those expenses. And so now, as you add each practitioner. The rent that they pay helps to spread the you know the burden out, I guess. And we have, we can all share on the expense side of things. So there's been. That's kind of how we've grown and what?
Speaker 3:how? How long did it take to get from kind of your business paying most of the expenses to a place where the other ones are helping contributing all of that?
Speaker 2:um, well, probably once we crossed over, like about the 10 practitioner mark, you know, then, that, you know, helps quite, yeah, helps quite a bit. So then it definitely starts to shift away from all of the weight on my shoulders to everyone contributing and interestingly so we opened June 1st 2019. Nine months later, we closed March 2020. And then we reopened June 1st 2020. So from then there was that growth. From the beginning there was challenges and even for patients, their own comfort level to come into a clinical setting. So there was, you know, guidelines that we were following to make sure that our practitioners, our front desk and our patients were comfortable. But there was like hesitation in 2020, you know, so our growth kind of profile is probably going to be different than someone opening up in 2024 or in the future. So there were challenges, for sure, in 2020, 2021.
Speaker 3:The challenges that shall not be mentioned.
Speaker 2:Well, exactly, it's behind us now and we're looking forward. We learned a lot during that time and we survived In part, as I mentioned before, choosing your partners in business being our bank that was supportive and bridging all the way through you mentioned that twice now.
Speaker 3:Could you talk about how you chose your bank?
Speaker 2:Is that something like? Yeah, well, there's the numbers side of it. How do you?
Speaker 3:choose a bank. How do you make that choice?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great question. There's the numbers side of things where you can look at the bank loan and the interest rates and those numbers. But we chose a bank with a history of working with small business local small business. Can I say the bank's name? If you want to say the bank's name, sure, we bank with Van City.
Speaker 3:Oh, Van City. Okay, very cool. So, A little local Vancouver action.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, they're a credit union and I can't speak to other businesses in 2020 and how the bigger banks or others supported them. I'm sure there was support, but we found a great match for us, very cool.
Speaker 1:You're feeling emotional about it. Well, no.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's a pretty important part of you know surviving yeah, totally the pandemic and how that impacted our revenue and, yeah, and when we're working together, uh, we didn't have other revenue right other income right. So no, van city was awesome and um, we appreciate them.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I love it. I love it. That's, that's amazing. It's something that seems so behind the scenes, but it's especially in when you're just getting started.
Speaker 1:It's critical to have the right fit yeah, did they like offer you support?
Speaker 3:is that like how it worked or is it more just like they? They knew what they're doing. They knew how much to like deal with you and all this. You have a representative. You know, I don't even know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we have one person we talked to, so he knows us really well, and in spring of 2020 he simply said we'll figure it out don't worry, don't worry, don't lose sleep right um wow the security that that would give in a moment of not just opening a business that's insecure enough, but then, in the middle of all of the pandemic, is just like that's a lot to think about.
Speaker 2:And you know we had learned to trust him and he gave great advice, and so then, once that happened.
Speaker 1:Let me also add, though, that you had done so much work to present a really maybe we should have said this earlier. You know, when we said let's do this, Eric spent hours putting together business plans and mission statements and projections, you know, and saying okay, I mean in 2018, 2017, when he started this, we were trying to okay, what does our six, seven, eight year goal look like? Right, and that was not something we don't, something we normally do as a family, like as a couple. That wasn't, I know, a lot of people do. It's not really our MO, but that was what needed to happen, right, and so, when we settled in on our bank, he had all of this very organized work to say this is what we're thinking, and I think that helped, with that banker, to trust the direction that we were going to go and healthcare certainly is a fairly stable industry and even through economic roller coasters, healthcare know, for healthcare does well, you know, during recessions it's stable.
Speaker 2:So I think there was a lot of confidence that they had invested in us and it would all work out. But it was nice to hear them just tell us don't worry, we got you, we will figure it out. On the other side and it's worked out really well. It's been a great relationship.
Speaker 3:What was that first mission statement like?
Speaker 2:We have to dust that off.
Speaker 2:You know, I think that we wanted to be a part of a community, providing excellent care to help people reach their health care goals, in kind of a conscious, sustainable way. Where we would be I'll use that word community but where we're located. We were the first integrated clinic of this size in the area, so it was strategic on our location, so it was an underserved area. So part of our mission was to provide excellent care to the community and we live, you know, six minutes away. We're in the community and so I think you know that was part of it, but the exact mission statement word for word I don't remember. Yeah, no, that's fine, that's fine's fine.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I want to call out your choice and location a little bit because, as one of your patients, definitely that was a critical decision that you made, because it was underserved in the sense that there's thousands of people that live around there but there's not a ton of healthcare options. So I think it seems to have been an excellent choice in that way. And I don't know, did you feel like you were taking a chance a little bit by choosing that, because you were especially in that center? You're the only one, or maybe even still, but then around too, like it's, there's industrial things around there, there's um other businesses, but not healthcare businesses, and then there's a lot of homes and people living in different places.
Speaker 2:So yes, it's um, I guess it's um a real estate. You know expression of location, location, location. So we really did talk about the balancing and so we had um. I had worked at a clinic that was in a residential area and during the day it was pretty quiet because everyone's gone before 2020, everyone's gone from the residential area during the day, so that was posed its own problems.
Speaker 2:Um, we wanted to have a balance of where, a place where people came to work, so lots of businesses, large industrial stuff and other professional services, so that's all around us as well as residential nearby. And knowing that where we chose the clinic location is a development hub for the District of North Vancouver, so those changes are still happening and there will be more and more growth. So, zeroing in on an underserved area that had a balance, that also had growth planned, those were all really important. And we did choose a street level location and, as we were looking at commercial spaces, a certain large coffee chain had, you know, signed their lease and we said, well, if they're going to be beside us, then we don't really need to think too much more about analyzing the demographics and all of these things, because it will be, it's going to be a good location if the large company made that choice.
Speaker 3:I love that. This is how you made this choice. How did you get this information about the fact that it was an area for development? I mean, I know you live in the area and I live in the area, so you kind of it's all just in the ether, but did you actually look at what the plans were and how did you know about this?
Speaker 1:yeah, coffee, you know establishment. We didn't live there when we moved over oh yeah, that's true open. Oh, I didn't know that yep, and I remember driving by the development and saying I don't know. This feels like it's a no.
Speaker 3:It was a bit of a up and coming place.
Speaker 1:Still, yeah, oh yeah, I mean all of the units weren't filled Like it was not. It wasn't, in fact, right. We were kind of like I don't know about that zone Seven years later. I couldn't have predicted or understood how much of a small town area that whole zone is. It's very fascinating.
Speaker 3:I mean you have to be careful in the parking lot because there's so many people there. All the time I have been in an accident in that parking lot long ago, long ago, but I mean it's busy is what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:It's busy, yeah, and you know for the. So to answer your question um the commercial real estate agent, um oh, they had that information they knew that this coffee you know very helpful. Big coffee brand was moving in um and uh, so they were able to share that and um. During the lease negotiations we um ask for exclusivity and some of our services, so in our whole complex there will not be, you know, um duplicate yeah yeah and so, but the landlord also had a nice.
Speaker 2:I didn't know you could ask for that uh-huh, yeah, you can um, so the and that's like's like giving security to the business owner, that's competition.
Speaker 3:Yo Like, wow, I'm super excited to hear that that's wow, nobody can step on our toes.
Speaker 2:Very cool.
Speaker 1:I mean in the new development going behind us, somebody could go in? Yes, and that's okay.
Speaker 2:You know we are there first and established and certainly, if you know, in the new development, when it's ready in a couple of years, if a chiropractor opens up a clinic there, that's great. Actually, some might see it as competition, but we're established, we're growing and we will be full. We're not full yet, but we will be full and it's okay to have the other practitioners physiotherapists, massage therapists in the neighborhood and even close by. That's going to be totally fine. Yeah, but to find out the information on it's a development hub that was online at the District of North Vancouver. You can see their OCP, their official community plans I think that's what it stands for and so you can see the seal and you can see exactly their different areas and that's like a 10-year, 15-year plan areas and and that was like, that's like a 10 year, 15 year plan, right, um, so all of that's available for somebody. If they're looking at a space to open, um, okay, well, what does it look like now? What does the future hold? Um, will there be growth here? You know?
Speaker 2:etc so, um, that's kind of helped pick location and, conversely, people will also choose to be sometimes in a business tower or a business park where they might not have the walk-by traffic and they'll have a less expensive lease, but they'll spend more money on marketing. Have a less expensive lease, they'll spend more money on marketing. We chose a ground floor, high exposure, high foot traffic, and it's an expensive lease. We chose a large size to start with. You can start small and then grow larger. You can always move if you've outgrown your space, depending on what your goals are.
Speaker 2:So we chose a large space that had a lot of overhead to get started with and that you know was a short-term pain. But we know in long-term that we are seeing that now that we're able to, there's a less stress, um, and we're not going to move. We don't need to expand. We're we're growing into our large space, right and um. So there's different ways to go about it and there's plenty of integrated health clinics or even solo practitioners, um, in a business tower, low overhead, um, lots of good advertising. And maybe in a business tower, low overhead, lots of good advertising. And maybe in a downtown core where there's thousands of people around with the right advertising and marketing, they'll be successful in their model too. But this is just what we chose.
Speaker 3:Love it. Yeah, so, in this whole journey, what are your, what are your biggest lessons and if you have something that you could share, that didn't work, that you wish you knew in advance, I'm not sure about didn't work and I've maybe touched on it a couple of times.
Speaker 1:But I think the biggest lesson is for me, how to settle into the plan. You know, I felt like and I kind of I think I find it funny because when we made this decision I said this earlier it's like, oh, we're going to open a business, we're going to be business owners, okay, here we go. It's a very long road and I think somebody said you know, five years, think about five years. Well, when you're opening something, five years seems so far away and I just I kept repeating that to myself like, just be patient, be patient. And I guess that maybe is the biggest thing I learned is, I mean, even though I'm as old as I am, I still need the reminder to be patient because it takes time and you know, like getting the right staff on board, getting the right practitioners, recognizing that we're a brand new company in a space that doesn't know us, so just being patient that it will happen if you really believe in what you're doing and have a passionate person that you're working with on board like that.
Speaker 1:We just had to stay on that patient path and continue on. But that doesn't answer any of the challenges I just. I think my personal challenge was having expectations that it was just going to open the door and we go.
Speaker 2:No Right. Well, and I think that's something to consider for a new business owner. A new clinic owner would be if you purchase an existing clinic, then you have practitioners and staff and revenue already happening, depending on the cost. You know differences of starting something from nothing. You know there could be pros and cons to that. So I think you know what worked was. You know staying positive, you know following the plan and creating that atmosphere and culture of you know that's positive and you know surrounding yourself and you know surrounding yourself with really, really good people yeah, can you think of any specific?
Speaker 1:oh, I wouldn't do that again. Moments, I mean, I know we had them, we just blocked them out I mean, there's enough.
Speaker 2:I don't, I don't, I don't think we can say we had any like, oops, that was a huge mistake, we didn't really have any of those. And, you know, perhaps we just got lucky, or perhaps we, you know, just drew from our experience and had our vision and our plan. Yeah, um. So I think we, you know, we've spent money on some marketing where it's like questionable of the return. Maybe that could be a waste of money, maybe that's a mistake, but it's also sometimes hard to figure that out. Whether that's tangible, yeah, but yeah, I can't think of any major, major problems.
Speaker 3:I think it's interesting you bring up marketing because our CEO and co-founder, ali, she, ran clinics for 20 years and owned them and she is very particular about marketing. So our entire marketing department at Jane is structured in a very specific way because of her preferences around marketing and it's because of what you're saying that sometimes some of the most typical assumed that you'll do them types of marketing don't work. And it goes back to what you were saying about the location. What's going on there? Are you relying on foot traffic or are you in a tower? Those sorts of things matter. Did you buy the business from someone else and there's already a client base? The marketing you're going to do is going to look different than if you're starting from scratch in an up and coming area versus starting from scratch in a downtown hub. So all of those things matter in terms of how you choose marketing.
Speaker 3:But I don't think that conversation is well. I don't know where people are going to have that conversation, but we're trying to have it here. So I love that you brought that up and in this podcast, different people we've been interviewing. They'll say different things. Different types of marketing work for them. One person said SEO was critical. Another person said SEO didn't work for me at all. It just was a waste of money. But if I wrote content helping solve people's problems or giving them tips on how to like, think about the, you know, helping themselves or whatever that that worked, it brought people in.
Speaker 2:So and then you mentioning foot traffic, which is another one I haven't heard yet as we get started here, so it's an interesting topic for sure, and I think on the North Shore there's certainly very busy areas where there's a lot of clinics and a lot of other businesses. It's very commercially busy spots. But that posed some problems for people in our community Access and driving there and then sometimes traffic.
Speaker 3:Parking is a huge problem. It can be a mental hurdle. I don't want to go to that place because I have to figure out how to park. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And, and so we had a lot of people early on say thank you for being here, so I don't have to go there. Yeah, and so that just you know then, when you provide excellent care and friendly service, then it's just you're part of that community and the referrals and the networking and so-and-so, telling their neighbor and like so that's, you know, was part of going to an underserved area and it was interesting comments, you know, when we were first getting started.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and just a little side note on that, it's something that we've me have really struggled with through this entire process has been just our online presence and our social media component of things. Just, I think, being of this time frame, it felt like there needed to be a lot of effort and energy put into that, and we've had ups and downs with it. For sure, we're kind of in a down at the moment and it's as Eric said a minute ago. It's hard to really quantify it, especially because we are a single place in a very specific community. So perhaps one thing that we'll want to do in the future is put more energy into that for more of our community involvement as far as just other businesses and getting to know people more. But I don't know and we'll never know because we can't go back in time. I don't know and we'll never know because we can't go back in time, but I can't imagine how having a better Instagram page and a better any social media for us specifically would have grown our business that much more.
Speaker 2:I mean, we have a very nice Instagram.
Speaker 3:What's your handle?
Speaker 2:At Vita Northman. Is it? Yes, it is, but um, but nevertheless the um. I think that people, if they're um, maybe hear about you or it's find you on a search engine, what you know different ways, and if they want to say, well, what does it like, look like? Well, that's represented our brand and our feel. You know our practitioners. Some introductions, it's all there. So it's there. It's still there. We haven't updated and you know we're in that. We haven't been spending a lot of energy and updating our Instagram recently.
Speaker 2:Um, but it's all still there and unless you, I guess, look very closely at the dates, it still gives you that feel of who we are and what they might expect. So whether there's a post from last week or a post from last month, the feel is still there.
Speaker 1:Right and I think, having a really simple website where people can get the basic information, they can contact you and they can figure out who is working at your clinic and what we offer.
Speaker 2:And having that updated and current. You know that's important.
Speaker 1:Very well, side note Love it.
Speaker 3:So when you started out, you said you have a 6 to 8 year goal. Where are you in that process and what's coming next for Vitae?
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, we had that business plan and that was written in 2018. So the business plan I mean, once 2020 hit, the business plan really just went in reverse. So you know, we're now four years into the business plan and we're well on our way, and so we still have some growth ahead planned. We'll be adding practitioners and so kind of on that business side of things, we've achieved what we wanted to achieve and we're continuing to grow. But we've had with our business plan, which you know we look at every once in a while, dust it off, and we've learned to be very fluid and to make changes to that plan.
Speaker 2:So evaluate what's working, what's not and what's exciting. What can we look forward to Like?
Speaker 1:accepting change that didn't happen and celebrating what did. Certainly, things happen that we wouldn't have anticipated and we're really happy with. What do you think is our next goal?
Speaker 2:What do you think is our next goal? Floating around is the talk of a second location, but that's really floating around. There's no pen on paper on that one.
Speaker 1:Thank you for that final qualifier.
Speaker 2:Floating around, floating around, but um, you know, I think we're also, you know, once we are full and a stab, you know, completely established with a well-oiled machine and having a fun place to work, um, that could check all of our boxes and that might be it right um, so just you know, a little bit more growth and yeah and we can be very happy with where we are and excited to go to work each day.
Speaker 3:Love it Well. Thank you both for being here. You have given us so many unique things to think about and tips and tricks for people, for our listeners, so I appreciate your time so much and well thank you for having us.
Speaker 2:What fun yeah well, we appreciate it, and you know, jane's been a big part of our business as well, and so we appreciate being here and helping the listeners and viewers with some ideas.
Speaker 3:Yeah, awesome, thank you, okay. No-transcript.