Radio Front Desk

Does your clinic have a mission? | Emily Marson & Ghoncheh Ayazi of Aphrodite Fertility on practicing with purpose

• Jane.app • Episode 2

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Walk into ⁠Aphrodite Fertility Acupuncture⁠, and you’ll be greeted by vibrant plants, a warm waiting room, and a soft piano track playing over the speakers. Regardless of your journey to this fertility clinic, you’re welcomed into a safe space, carefully built for some of life’s most vulnerable moments.

In this episode, you’ll hear how Emily Marson and Ghoncheh Ayazi’s trust for each other as business partners overflows to their practice, and how they make their guest experience a healing one.

Learn more about Aphrodite Fertility, and read their story ⁠here⁠ in Front Desk magazine.

Emily Marson is a true believer in comprehensive integrative fertility care. She has made it her mission to pull women out of the darkness of infertility and guide them to the family they’ve always wanted. She credits much of her patient’s success to combining the ancient wisdom of Chinese medicine with modern, conventional biomedicine. You will find just what you need at Aphrodite, every step of the way.

Ghoncheh Ayazi is deeply committed to empowering and guiding women and couples on their journey towards a happy, healthy baby. Her life’s mission is to support women through these major life transitions equipped with knowledge and support. She is a leading specialist in integrative fertility, hormone and menstrual health, pregnancy and postpartum wellness. Ghoncheh loves connecting deeply with her patients one-on-one to lend a listening ear, provide thoughtful questions and guide them to the rightful next steps to help reach a healthy pregnancy. She is a cherished resource for those seeking support and care on their fertility journey.



This podcast is for informational purposes only and does not constitute medical, legal, or financial advice. The views expressed in this episode are solely those of the host/guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Jane or front desk magazine.

This episode also contains material about fertility that may be triggering or distressing for some individuals. Listener discretion is advised.

Emily Marson:

So, man, the mission is to reach, to reach women and to say that you're not alone and that we can figure this out and we're going to help you and hold you like, carry you along the way. We're here for that and we really truly know that we can get you to your family.

Denzil Ford:

Walk into Aphrodite Fertility Acupuncture and you'll be greeted by vibrant plants, a warm waiting room and a soft piano track playing over the speakers. If you're a client, you might've found your way to the clinic after seeing founders Emily Marson and Gonche Ayazi on Instagram sharing fertility insights. Regardless of your journey to Aphrodite, you're welcomed into a safe space carefully built for some of life's most vulnerable moments. In this episode, you'll hear how Emily and Gonche's trust for each other as business partners overflows to their practice, and how they make the guest experience a healing one. Welcome to Radio Front Desk, a show that surfaces what real people in real clinics are doing to open, run and grow successful health and wellness businesses. I'm your host, denzel Ford, editor-in-chief of Front Desk Magazine by JNAP. Here we have powerful conversations with health and wellness professionals on the business side of clinic life. We hear their stories and discover what works and how to do it, and we also talk about what doesn't work. If you want to check out more stories like this, head to frontdeskjaneapp. If you want to check out more stories like this, head to frontdeskjaneapp. Special note this episode discusses sensitive topics related to women's health and experience of loss, which may be triggering for some listeners.

Denzil Ford:

Join me for this episode on Radio Front Desk on building and marketing a practice to millennials in their fertility journey. So let's step inside your clinic a little bit. So what is Aphrodite like when you step inside? I'm really curious about, just to give listeners a sense of the space and the feel and the vibe. I mean, you can see it a little bit from the photo that I've seen on the magazine cover, but I'd love to hear you both talk about it a little bit. What was your intent behind the space? How did you design it and come to alignment on what it would be? And then, yeah, just bring us there. Bring us there a little bit.

Emily Marson:

Yeah, I'll start with like the intention and then Gonche can maybe speak on like how it feels for her too. But from the beginning I knew my practice was not going to be sterile, was going to be like the opposite of Western medicine. So oftentimes I think practitioners coming out of school feel maybe like they have to prove their authority and they move towards like a Western medicine model, and so oftentimes clinics feel like they have to wear their lab coats and then they have to. You know, the treatment rooms are based similarly on like what you would find at an MD's office. Yeah, and I think that that actually does a disservice, because what acupuncture and Eastern medicine can really do is envelop like all of the ways to heal, including how the space feels. And so, because we focus on women's health, the space is really feminine and I'm sure you can see that like from the cover. And we've we recently moved and so it's even more feminine. We just like went all in on femininity and like sort of an ethereal energy that when, like when you walk in, your nervous system comes down there are no bright lights, there are windows were really important getting nature to hit your skin when, especially these women who come to see us who are particularly type A, like big producers in their careers, probably sitting at an office all day and just sitting in a masculine energy world like a go and produce world, and so I wanted the space to be full of mother nature. So we have a lot of plants, pinks and neutrals, really soothing to that like rest and digest side of your nervous system. So their body has like a physical response when they come here.

Emily Marson:

The other thing we do that's maybe different than other clinics is that we play piano music and we play the same 12 tracks like in a loop. So Gansha and I have heard these tracks like maybe 10,000 times but it's super intentional because what happens is the patient, as they come back, they hear the piano songs, they start to recognize them and then they start to know what song comes next and then anticipate that and then they can sort of let go of the idea of like the anticipatory nature of like a new song coming into the room and it sort of like puts them into it. I actually had our patient recently. We took her through fertility and pregnancy and she was like late in pregnancy. She went to Europe and they were sitting at like some French cafe and this one of the songs piano songs came on and she was like I immediately transported it into your clinic and that's the idea. Is that okay? So you feel a sense of nervous system down regulation when you step in here and then to have these like cues that you that will also trigger that, that like piece, yeah, it's very I.

Emily Marson:

Everything we do aesthetically is very intentional. Um, and then yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ghoncheh Ayazi:

So, um, like emily is saying, feminine, earthy, grounded, and there's also like the energy, the energy that emily and I carry as practitioners, uh, that we bring into the space and our rapport relationship with our patients, which is is just like like we're friends, like we're friendly, where we talk, we laugh, we like make jokes, but we can also cry with them and have them lean a shoulder on us. We really pride ourselves on being like at the same level with them. We don't view ourselves as as being like above them or this kind of traditional like doctor patient relationship or power struggle. Like we're in it with you, um, and patients really love that. And, especially as we've grown grown into this new space where we are now, we have more offerings, um, we have like our movements to do the Pilates and yoga classes which we'll talk more about, um, but we also have massage and like sound healing and different types of offerings.

Ghoncheh Ayazi:

So it's become really like a community center for these, for women in San Diego, and when women come in, they're like there's like an energy to. It's a bubbliness to it, where some people are chatting and chatting over here and we're hugging over here and crying over there and like there's a real like energy of connection and it's so healing and like. Without a doubt, every woman that walks in here is like, oh my gosh, I need to come back. Like what is this magical place?

Denzil Ford:

I love how you're describing the details of the intention that you're trying to create this patient care environment. The sound one really stands out to me because I think it's it's something that definitely some clinics think about. They play music in different ways, but the way that you kind of really drilled down into choosing these 12 songs, it speaks to me, because I have an academic background and there's a lot of research and academic writing on the power of sound and the power of like your environment and different things like the role of objects, but also the role of sound in changing the human experience. So I'm just so appreciative that you shared that with us.

Ghoncheh Ayazi:

So thank you yeah, and people ask like, do you ever get tired of the music? And I'm like, actually no, I love it and it puts me into a trance as a practitioner.

Emily Marson:

It's very grounding for us and also I like to joke like when we're like in our 90s and and can't remember our names. If someone should play this music and we will come back just like the notebook we'll come back.

Denzil Ford:

Yeah, are they instrumental songs, are they?

Ghoncheh Ayazi:

you know, like Chopin and like Debussy, like your five classics.

Denzil Ford:

Yeah, yeah, very cool, very cool. So if you could articulate for me the mission of your clinic.

Emily Marson:

I'd love to hear that. Yeah, the mission has always been to pull women out of the darkness of infertility, because infertility is something that is still really taboo to talk about, and I think that there's a sense that you're not completing your life's purpose if you can't get yourself pregnant, if something is going wrong with your fertility journey. It speaks, speaks very deeply to your, your sense of self for these women, and so they just, and their and their judgment against you know, their self-worth, it's, it's unbelievably torturous and for them, and so even friendships don't talk to each other really about infertility, unless someone, like, lets it slip, and then everyone's like, oh well, I also, you know, had trouble conceiving, and so there's real loneliness in the journey to motherhood, especially if you are struggling. And so, man, it just hurts my heart to know that so many women are out there alone and just feeling all these really deep emotional moments, and they have to, like you know, give themselves shots in the bathroom because they're going through IVF. When they're out to dinner with a group of friends and come back and pretend like nothing, you know they're not going through anything.

Emily Marson:

And so, man, the mission is to reach to, to, to reach women and to say that you're not alone and that we can figure this out and we're going to help you and hold your. Hold you like, carry you along the way. We're here for that and we really, truly know that we can get you to your family that you've wanted and it can look. Many different pathways can take shape in that journey and we can help you with the tools that we have and we can help you, guide you to the people who can also add to that journey to get you there, cause we know we can get you there, um and so yeah, so women, women, women centered, and there's, we're just pulling people out of that loneliness. It's like really the root.

Ghoncheh Ayazi:

Yep, yeah, and women are so grateful to find us. You know, in their new appointment they're like I am so glad I found you all and this is exactly what I've been needing. And very quickly, they, they this is a word I like to use a lot when emily and I talk like they magnetize to us, like they're like you have what I'm looking for, I am with you and I'm going to follow you Um, whether you know we're having? Yeah, they're just are. They're picking up what we're putting down and the deep trust is built.

Emily Marson:

Yeah, we have the best work because we truly know that we can get. We can help these women.

Denzil Ford:

I love that there's so much heart behind what you're doing and I and I can feel it from both of you, so it's just so wonderful to hear you talk about it. I wonder if we can translate all of that like inspiration and humanity and heart into the business side of it, and how do you kind of make that translation in your day-to-day lives in 800 different ways? And the first thing I wanted to talk about was the different services that you offer. You've both kind of alluded to that and you've alluded to the fact that you have tools, and I'm imagining that the other services that you offer inside Aphrodite are also different tools. So how did you come to that decision to bring other types of care into the clinic and what would you say you know really is working in that sense?

Emily Marson:

Yeah, I think just the idea of Chinese medicine is that the body is all connected, and so we know that we have acupuncture and herbs to help get you to your healthy pregnancy, but we also have the perspective and the humility to know that sometimes that's not all the body needs.

Emily Marson:

All the body needs and really the idea of bringing in other practitioners is to. A lot of times what's happening is that the nervous system is really at the root of not feeling good, like, of course, right, and so not feeling good is a part of healing in all aspects of what's maybe coming up for you, whether it's fertility or whatever, and so we brought in different practitioners to help women feel better in general. And that looks like deep touch with massage that works on like the you know, the deep proprioceptive levels, and that looks like cellular alignment with sound, and that looks like certain exercises like Pilates and yoga that's really grounded and rooted in femininity, so that if we can get the nervous system to come out of fight or flight, then a lot of pathways to healing open up.

Denzil Ford:

What I'm really hearing in that is that you made the decision those decisions to replace what your patients need, which is super interesting to me, because when I've asked other clinic owners, I would say their answer sometimes can be that there's a business reason behind it and that is the first thing that they go to. But you're telling me you're listening to what your patients need and I mean I don't want to be saying that they're not also listening to what their patients need. It's just that you're definitely very deep inside your patient experience, from what I'm hearing you talk about.

Emily Marson:

Yeah, that's a great way to say it, and it would not feel authentic to me and us as like the business drivers, to bring something in that was for, let's say, you know, monetary benefit. You know these big projects, you know we have this movement studio and it's going to take a year to be profitable from it, but that's like fine. But the goal it's going to work because we know our patients need it, we know women need it and we know that we just have to get in front of the women who do need it. But, like, there's um the like, the monetary side of it is like I, that's fine, we know it's going to work. It just takes time to work and we can be at a loss for a while because we know that ultimately it is authentic to healing and people are attracted to healing.

Denzil Ford:

Yeah, that's very powerful. So talk to me about how you two work together. What is the kind of like division of labor a little bit, and how does that work in a positive way? You guys both seem like you're really into this and into the partnership that you have. Yeah, I'd love to hear more about that. Dual entrepreneurship is the buzzword I'm going to use Entrepreneurship is the buzzword I'm going to use.

Ghoncheh Ayazi:

I love the way that sounds. Well, let me just say that the amount of growth that we've had in the last year as Aphrodite is largely attributed to the fact that Emily and I started to share a schedule. We overlap more than we don't, so there is we're constantly passing ideas back and forth to each other and talking about new projects and new ideas and talk about patient cases. So it's like very kind of patient centered and also business centered, and that's been huge. So I'd say Emily is like the main idea generator, grand visionary, like literally visionary. Let me just say that um and you know I come in with just like the getting shit done kind of attitude, um, and tending to like a lot of the, the details to help get these projects and ideas off of the ground and figuring out what we need to make it happen. Um, so it's, we both have different skills and strengths and we're so lucky that they really complement each other. They do and I would say, yeah, like we actually and strengths and we're so lucky that they really complement each other.

Emily Marson:

They do, and I would say, yeah, like we actually were, just because we're bringing people on and as we grow, we need to have real structure around sort of duties, and so we were just, literally before this, drawing out the map, and so it's like the vision and the aesthetic is lands with me although Ganché is absolutely a contributor to that but the overall like movement of the business and where we see it going, I'm always thinking about, and then I'll, you know, bounce that off Ganché and she will execute like the best person to have, for someone who, for my brain, that's more like creative, but not necessarily, um, as organized and diligent, and I think that probably comes, like that innate nature from your parents.

Emily Marson:

It's just like here's what I need to do. We're going to get it done. This is how we're going to do it, and so it's just. It's such a great like yin and yang complimentary partnership and it's, I feel, really lucky. Yeah, Likewise, We've been like we've been trying to hire a third acupuncturist for a while and we just haven't had, we haven't found, and we just haven't had, we haven't found. We actually just recently did this week. For a long time we hadn't found anyone with that really mission driven idea of how they want to contribute to Aphrodite and like follow a mission, sort of like a global sense of the ultimate goal, versus like just a practitioner who comes in, does their job and comes out Right right. With Ganché, it's been amazing to both have eyes on like the bigger picture and drive movement towards that.

Denzil Ford:

Very, very wonderful. So what is what has your journey been from? Like just getting started to expansion and like? Take me through how you made decisions about, like when to hire somebody was gone through your first hire or did you have people already and then Did you have people already and then how are you making that decision to bring people in? I guess I'm asking from a like really practical place of like identifying the business need and then bringing them in. How did that happen for you?

Emily Marson:

Yeah, I think that just the first thing was patient load. It wasn't sustainable. I had just become a new mom and I just couldn't be here all the time. And then also again, sort of like from the patient perspective, just wanting to serve them the quality. I didn't want to lose quality as I gained patient load right, I wanted to continue real quality, and so Gontay wasn't my first hire but she was the first right hire.

Emily Marson:

So I think hiring has been the biggest struggle for me, because I have found that in the beginning I was just so excited about again helping women and bringing someone on to help me do that that I didn't do my due diligence in sort of interviewing women, deeply interviewing. I just sort of like was excited to have someone else and so I did more of the talking in the in the interview and really it needs, I need to, um, ask more questions to find out answers about, like, their particular motivation, how they feel about, like, uh, joining a team, and um, um, entrepreneurship, because we were talking about this yesterday. We sort of in this moment have like a startup vibe where it's like you're not just I'm sure, it's like there's so many projects that we have the next person that comes in, yes, has to treat patients, but also has to be really willing and excited about driving the business forward. And that's probably the rarest thing, because those people tend to open their own business.

Emily Marson:

If you have, like, an entrepreneurial mind, you tend to open your own clinic, and so it's really rare to find someone who genuinely wants to join a team, and that's why they're looking to come on board Right, not just like they need a paycheck and they want, you know, just to put in needles and walk away. And so we recently found someone who brought sort of entrepreneurship to the interview as like the, the main reason why she wanted to join us as like a team member of something that she can see is growing a business, growing um, versus like I just want to come in and and needle um patients and walk away. It was it was hard to find and I found it in Gontay, and then we've been looking for probably over a year now yeah, yeah, um, yeah what an interesting concept that you're looking for people with a year now.

Denzil Ford:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What an interesting concept that you're looking for people with a mindset of entrepreneurship but to come and join what you've already created. I don't think I've heard that yet. That's very unique way of putting it, and I don't know that anyone has said that to me either that it's hard to find people because they're probably starting their own businesses.

Ghoncheh Ayazi:

Very interesting that to me either, that it's hard to find people because they're probably starting their own businesses. Very interesting. We've learned to really take our time in this process and finding our next hire. Um, because it would be so easy to you know, you don't have. The bar is very low if you're not looking for the entrepreneurial spirit on having the qualifications. But I mean I made a pact that like we're not going to settle and we're really just going to take our time to find, like that next unicorn because otherwise it's just so expensive. You're just financially and paying someone that doesn't have longevity in the business. Your reputation that's the biggest thing that I feel above all else, is if you don't make the right choice, your reputation is at stake and that's been, I'd say, like kind of like the scariest thing is like relinquish the potential, relinquishing control or of our reputation or image. So it's?

Denzil Ford:

Do you mean the reputation because of how this person is interacting with your patients, or do you mean your reputation if you have to let them go and then they go out into the world?

Ghoncheh Ayazi:

Oh, like how an employee is interacting with our patients who have been following us for a long time and already kind of built in trust and making sure that we don't break that trust at any cost. Does that make sense?

Denzil Ford:

Yeah, what have you learned about interviewing prospective people? It's something that I spend a lot of time thinking about and I've developed a very strict thing that I do. I wonder if you have anything like that, a strategy, certain questions that you ask what you're looking for, non-negotiables, that kind of thing, totally.

Emily Marson:

I would love to hear what you're like. I'm always learning about interviewing.

Denzil Ford:

Just let me just real quick. One thing is the first few minutes. A lot of our interviews are virtual. The first few minutes it's just like hey, how you going, how's it going, how's your day, what are you up to, how's your week going to look? And I'm very much grading that and I'm very much listening for how they speak. What's their tone? How do they talk about their current environment?

Denzil Ford:

Usually they're currently working and they will do one of two things they will talk very positively about their week and their day and their manager, or they will talk very negatively and it's basically one of the two. It's like pass, fail in those first three minutes. And then I also later asked them a lot more technical, hard questions, looking for something similar, because we are also in a startup environment and when you get someone into that environment, there are hard moments. There's difficult situations to work through, friction-filled moments where things don't go the way you thought they would, and everyone has a lot of heart invested into the things that we do, and so when it fails, there's a very personal experience that people are having. So I want to know how have they experienced that in their past? And there's only so much you can do in an interview, but what you can do is really push into what was the experience, how did you feel, how did you handle it?

Denzil Ford:

And again, people will do one of two things. They'll either be honest or not, and you can kind of tell if they're saying the phrases that are supposed to be said or if they're giving you an honest answer. And then you can also kind of gauge if they have like a maturity to be like yeah, this was really hard, but I also recognize that I have work to do to show up as lovely as I can. So it's something like that. Those are my two biggest things, and then there's like 800 other things. But what about?

Emily Marson:

you, those are so great and we're going to 800 other things. But what about you? Those are so great and we're going to, we're going to tuck those into our pockets too. But what we've learned to do is, um Ganché will sort of screen, so she'll do like the first interview and just get a sense of um how they speak. Um, actually, even before that, we ask for a cover letter, and if they well, if they don't send one, I mean obviously, that's a big red flag.

Denzil Ford:

Oh, I'm so into that, yeah. And so many people who hire they're like, yeah, they didn't send a cover letter. I'm like no, no.

Emily Marson:

Yeah, yes, and like and like how they write in their cover letter matters. And you know, now in this day and age, like flagging for chat GBT, because, again, like our voices, like is is authentic, our branding is authentic, and so you can sort of read chat GBT although it was a good tool, but, like, let's hear some authenticity and then Gontre will screen. And so do you want to talk about, like your screening?

Ghoncheh Ayazi:

process. Yeah, so we've been doing initial interview. I've been doing initial interviews with applicants on zoom, to just do that basic, energetically. How, how do they, how, how are?

Emily Marson:

they present yeah. It's instant, instant we talk about we talk about sorry to interrupt, but we talk about whether or not they raise their eyebrows when they speak. In Chinese medicine there's a thing called shen, which is the energy that comes out of your mind. You can tell when people have a really flat affect. It's like our patients need the coach and the positivity, and if they're not raising their eyebrows, yeah.

Ghoncheh Ayazi:

That spark, that was hilarious.

Denzil Ford:

I love it. I'm going to take that one and put it in my pocket.

Ghoncheh Ayazi:

After an interview, I'll go and interview for them.

Ghoncheh Ayazi:

I'm like there was no Shen, no Shen so no hire.

Ghoncheh Ayazi:

Yeah, so initial interview over Zoom, seeing how they speak, their energy, are they asking questions?

Ghoncheh Ayazi:

I think that's one of the most important things is how engaged are they?

Ghoncheh Ayazi:

They need to be engaged every step of the way, from the interview through the second interview which we do in person, and through the training we really are looking for, like a coachability, teachability and a humility and the person that we bring on, enough humility to know when they don't know something and to feel safe enough to ask questions, which, of course, has a lot to do with the environment we're creating as managers and you had mentioned that yourself too but we really want that, that engagement.

Ghoncheh Ayazi:

So, if the first interview goes well, they kind of like check, check the boxes at a minimum. You know, I'll ask about what they're doing currently, why it's not working, where they see themselves in like five to ten years, and that really helps us get a vision of you know, are they looking to join a practice and then start their own business in like a couple of years? Or they have, they had their own business and they're just really ready to join a team and then if they meet those like basic bars, we'll invite them into the studio for an in-person second interview with both myself and Emily and we'll see kind of how they interact in person and how they present.

Emily Marson:

Yeah, and I would say like the one of the big things that makes people stand out is when they are. They have they come across with like I'm really curious and interested in continuing to learn and I have. I'm thinking of this recent candidate we're about to hire. She's like I have all these ideas about the business. If you're, I'd be happy to share. I studied your website. You know she's showing that she really took initiative to learn the business and the mission and then but then sort of came back and was like and I, I'm really ready to learn and I know that I can learn from mentorship, like, sort of. Like the like I have all of this energy to bring, but I'm not trying. I'm still ready to learn to bring, but I'm not trying, I'm still ready to learn. Yeah, so checking the ego, like because if you bring people with egos into your business, you're in trouble.

Denzil Ford:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that. And another thing that's really important to me is being able to take feedback, and that's definitely really related to the ego, because, ultimately, when you're working for a business or when you're hiring for people to work for a business, you need to have people who are able to work for the business. When you have that ego and you think you're right or you think you have the best ideas, you're no longer working for the business.

Denzil Ford:

You're kind of like working for yourself and maybe you should have your own business or something like that, but it's it's so important and it's it's easy to underestimate the power of that, I think.

Ghoncheh Ayazi:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and that's something that we've really tried to make abundantly clear in the like, the offer, the contract that we present to somebody for bringing them on, is that you, everything you're doing is under like the brand, the mission, the vision of Aphrodite, like you're not your own business. Yeah, yeah, totally, it has to be like a cohesiveness, and how we present, how we speak to patients, how we coach patients through their fertility journey, it's all part of, like one grander vision and I think that's important.

Emily Marson:

And to speak to that like the decision to move when I first brought on employees. It's very common in acupuncture and I'm not sure in other, I think in other clinics um, to either rent rooms to other businesses like other, you know single person businesses, or to commission model um where, like this, you have this patients and so you're, you get a certain commission for how many patients you're holding, and that just creates fractures in the mission-centered business because the room rentals feel like they need to be working on their business and not necessarily match the branding and the experience that our patients are coming here for. The model creates a lot of resentment and competitiveness around like whose patient is this versus, um, only employees. So I start them off with a salary and so everyone can change their. The patients can see all the practitioners.

Emily Marson:

You know Gontre's salary doesn't change when someone cancels, which can feel like if it was a commission model, that can feel like, oh no, they canceled, I'm going to reach out to them a hundred times, and that can feel desperate or like thirsty, and so I try to. We've tried to create like a really sort of safety in the salaried employee model and so everyone I'm working here, I'm under the brand. I'm representing the brand and there's not sort of like ulterior motive to any anything that I do here. Does that make sense?

Denzil Ford:

how you do that operationally. But also, was there any pushback that you received when you were looking at making that decision? I've talked to a few other people and one of the things I've heard is that they were kind of advised against that, advised against the salary model. But when I hear you talk about it you're like well, it creates this environment in the clinic that isn't conducive with our brand. So I don't know what else you'd be willing to share about that.

Emily Marson:

Yeah, uh, the I okay, so I would always like the goal is to have employees who want to work here Also.

Emily Marson:

I come from corporate.

Emily Marson:

I was in of not wanting to work and so really also in the back of our minds as we grow is how do we create an environment where the employees want to come here, they feel secure in the salary that they're receiving and they feel like they can go take care of their families, and so what's hard as a business is that especially a service-based business where the income is based on like appointments, is taking on the risk of giving a salary that the business isn't generating yet.

Emily Marson:

Yeah, like the amount they come in. They have zero patients, but I'm giving them, you know, a certain salary. Yeah, Taking a loss at first until they reach, you know, the patient per patient amount that would be worth their salary. Yeah, I'm taking a lot, but creating the stability for the employee is just infinitely returned in how they present themselves here like their energetics, and that creates a better environment for the patient, and women can feel that this is their safety in this place, because the employees like to be here and feel safe being here and not like they're undervalued. It is hard.

Denzil Ford:

It's an interesting piece too, because when you make the people who work there feel safe, they're going to work to create, just even by default, the environment that you're trying to create for your patients that you discussed earlier, yeah.

Emily Marson:

So interesting how those two things link together Exactly. I mean, I would say the tough part is the salary at the beginning is low for San Diego. But I did make a model where this is sort of unique, I think, to us, where I give you a salary so you know what you're taking home every month and so you can really budget around it. And then every quarter for the first year we'll have a review and if you've held a certain amount of patients in that 13 weeks before the review, then you're bumped up by 10,000. So every quarter in the first year you can go up by 10,000 to get you to the livable salary in San Diego, right. And then once we get you there, then you become a chief operations officer or chief officer, especially in this founding, and then your salary is dependent as like a manager, and how the business is doing itself.

Emily Marson:

But it's a way for me to stay on some risk, but not like a huge risk. There's not a huge lag time until they're making their, their services are equal to their salary and then I can sort of give them more as they generate more. But their safety number they know they're taking home. So with commission they're like I don't know. This month we didn't have as many patients, so I don't know. Like you know, there's um, like, um. Yeah, it's not confusing, it's like it's very clear. And then there's very quick markers to getting to a livable salary in San Diego as they bring in money that supports the business.

Denzil Ford:

Yeah, I love how it's. It's kind of like you're in this together too when I'm hearing you talk about it, like you have a performance I don't know if performance is the right word, but a contribution, an impact, expectation, and you will be rewarded for that, and there's this like back and forth. It seems very doable when I hear you talk about it.

Ghoncheh Ayazi:

I'd say like the first salary employee of Aphrodite.

Ghoncheh Ayazi:

It really creates a like, a purity of interactions with your patients, that like going back to like the thirstiness that Emily was talking about.

Ghoncheh Ayazi:

Like this just this week, for example, I had a couple of patients that were wanting to pause treatment because of like life factors and they're like I'll be back, but they were really like looking for, like permission to pause.

Ghoncheh Ayazi:

They're like what, like, what do, like they have some other big things going on and they're like I don't know. And so having a salary, having that sense of like you don't need to worry about one person dropping off the schedule who will then come back in a few months really like gives a practitioner like, let's say, confidence in being like hey, it's okay, I'll see you in a few months, it's okay if you take a break while you deal with some urgent things, and they are so relieved and it feels really good from the practitioner side to say so with such like a clear mind and clear heart. That's really in the best interest of the patient. So there's really like kind of like the business level top business level choices of how we structure employment has such a ripple out effect in how we relate to patients and the trust that we build long-term.

Denzil Ford:

Yeah, so how do you um think about filling those appointments from? I mean, I'm assuming there's a sense of, like, getting people to come back from the patient care you're giving, but how do you get new people in the door? And what I'm trying to get at is let's talk about marketing a little bit.

Emily Marson:

Well, what we spoke to in the article, and I truly deeply believe, is that search engine optimization is where you should put your money, because what is everyone doing? They're Googling fertility, acupuncture. They're Googling what they're looking for and you don't have the keywords that will signal to Google that you are an authority in this space that people are trying to search for, Then you won't be presented in front of them. So I think, like oftentimes, as a new student or new practitioner coming out of school, you're like, okay, I set up a website, I spent all this money on like a website. And then you're like, publish. And you're like, okay, people are going to find me. And they're just, they're not going to find you unless you optimize your search engine, and I've done. You know, I learned that over the course of you know, seven years of doing other things Like what else did you do?

Emily Marson:

What else did you do? Yeah, so like Yelp ads, google ads, instagram ads, like networking, business, networking, marketing, interesting. And then, finally, I hired this team, duo Collective, and they were actually someone that my website provider recommended and they were like the difference in where we saw huge new numbers of new patients come through, because that's I mean, the reality is that's how people look for things now is, like through how they are searching on Google. The other thing is our reputation. So, like of course, any business is going to do well if they have, we have very tangible results. You know, like people come to us to get pregnant and then they get pregnant and have a baby. Okay, so like it's not. Like did I? I'm coming back from sure, because I I want to regulate my anxiety. Like do I feel better? It's like I want to have a baby and I had a baby. You know, like this is very tangible result. So the referral based business is really awesome. And then women come back to, like, their second kids.

Denzil Ford:

Right.

Emily Marson:

So itself is like the rooted, very slow level marketing, but the fastest marketing, sort of like energy and best marketing. Money spent was on search engine optimization.

Denzil Ford:

One of the questions I had was what, like when, because you're talking about people who are in a very particular moment of their life is there something that you're doing to be sensitive to that, when you're picking keywords or making your website or thinking about any other kind of messaging that you provide people in any other place, like in your physical clinic or anything? And I'm asking too, because I was thinking, like, how do you get people to come back? You're like you have a baby and then you had the baby and I guess maybe you have another baby, but then you've had the second baby and people have one, two, sometimes three. You know what I mean. Like, how are you approaching that where there is like an end point to your client base?

Emily Marson:

I think I just say that I don't need them to come back. And there's really and again, that sort of lets go of the energetics, like you have to be coming to acupuncture the rest of your life, like I, as a patient who have gone to, like other service providers, like chiropractors, particularly stand out for me, where they're like there's this treatment plan and then you'll, and then you'll come once a month, like forever. And to me it's like a patient I'm like that, I I can't get behind that, like I just want to get better and feel better. And then, when that's the case, then like let me choose if I come back for maintenance. And so I, basically we, we have a life cycle to our patients and because there's no, there's no like again, sort of desperate need, like the business isn't going to crash because I can't hold patients forever, then it, then the patients come back anyways, you know, then anyways, and they're like oh, I remember how I felt when I was there and now I'm having sleep problems, I'll come back. But I would say the majority are cycle patients. But they then tell their friends and so they generate new business.

Emily Marson:

And the other thing is like the reason that we are able to do well is because you know having a baby is something patients will give anything for, and so we ask that patients come back weekly while they're trying to conceive and then through their 14th week of pregnancy, and then again when they're going through labor and delivery. That's sort of the life cycle, so trying to conceive weekly, however long that takes, then through the first 14 weeks of pregnancy to stabilize the pregnancy and then back for labor and delivery and then, if you can come in postpartum, we just tell them we can help you. We get that you maybe can't come in because it's such a crazy time, but know that we are here for you. That's the cycle and the business does well. Because we also make clear that where we see the most success is if you come back every week. And we're an education-heavy brand, so in the first appointment we draw out the feedback loop for hormones and in that you can literally see I'm not trying to convince them you can see the hormones change every single week. And so we say see, successes is if you come back every week and and women are yes, like, yes, why? And so we are able to communicate like where we fit into into their story to get them to the baby that they want.

Emily Marson:

And so it's not an easy, it's not a hard sell. We're not selling because we're like this is how, this is how we can get you there. And we, we like viscerally know that because we've helped so many women now, and so I'm not I'm not like trying to convince them, I just say this is so. Can you make that work? Yeah, not. Like you know, I'm not trying to sell. This is how how it, this is how it works. Can you do that?

Ghoncheh Ayazi:

yeah, yeah. And these kids are also finding so much value in what we offer aside from the the, you know, confidence that we're going to help them get to their baby, but just like energetically when they come into the space and the touch and the system, regulation and the music all the things we were talking about in the beginning. We really work hard to infuse so much value to the treatment that, um, even if it's taking them longer to get pregnant and treatment is prolonged because we're working through some like deeper stuff, they still feel really motivated to come back because it just makes them feel good.

Denzil Ford:

Yeah, yeah, I love that. So what are? I'd love to hear from both of you what are one or two things that you would kind of advise others to think about or to do when they're getting a business started, and then maybe even like one thing that you think didn't work.

Emily Marson:

Hmm, Um, I, the thing that's the thing that has been the hardest is, is finding people for me for you know, like what we already sort of touched on, and um, and I think that as you grow, be willing to. It's like work ethic, it's like be willing you got to be treating because you got to support the financials of the business, but like you also have to put in a 40 hour business mindset, in like the three hours you have. So it's just a startup energy.

Emily Marson:

It's like you really in this moment you really have to be willing to work hard, which maybe I don't know be, willing to work hard, which maybe, I don't know, maybe we're like I'm showing my millennial tinge, but we maybe don't see that kind of ethic come out in the generation that's coming out of COVID and gosh. I feel like the boomers probably definitely said that about us.

Emily Marson:

So I feel like kind of cliche saying that, but but just like having really worth work ethic, but also knowing that that's not how it's going to be forever, and having having practices to really replenish yourself. We were just talking about this today. To really replenish yourself we were just talking about this today. So like personal practice, like find an hour, ideally a day, or a week, where you are just doing something for joy and not purpose. So like, even if it's exercise, like, don't make it exercise for purpose, like I got to hit this many calories, like dance or something you know, because if you're not grounded, nothing about your business and your patient experience will be either yeah, I love that.

Ghoncheh Ayazi:

One thing I would add is something that we see going through Chinese medicine school, you learn about so many different pathologies of the body or really filling your clinical hours during school treating like all kinds of things, all age ranges, all pathologies, and so there's very like a general view of how to practice and I think a lot of people come out of school like they just want to treat everything, which is lovely and great, and everything you could treat like kidney and everything you could treat like kidney disease and you could treat like you could do all these things. But you're really going to go far if you specialize totally. Um, you need to specialize because, like so often, we're just like like acupuncture websites for new practitioners and and it's like help find sorry, it sounds close. I don't mean to make fun of anybody, but like they're just kind of like cliche general, it doesn't actually appeal to anybody. People and we talk about this all the time people need to know that you are solving a problem that they have. So you need to say like no explicit terms like you have this, like you're suffering from like recurrent pregnancy loss, like we're going to treat that um, not like let's, let's feel your best self. That doesn't really appeal to anybody. Um, so specializing, um and not being afraid to uh, because going through school is very much less this like fear of like isolating people who don't fit your specialty. But I think we you need to specialize so you can like reach the people that desperately need your help. So that's, that's, that's the main thing for new practitioners to be aware of.

Denzil Ford:

Yeah.

Emily Marson:

Yeah, I would agree.

Denzil Ford:

Yeah, uh, the biggest thing that hasn't worked.

Ghoncheh Ayazi:

Yeah, I mean I guess I could think for myself everything's been working since I joined.

Ghoncheh Ayazi:

Now you have a shared vision, a shared mission and yeah it's hard work but you're in it together and it's like incredible. But I could share. I guess what didn't work when I had my own practice before joining Aphrodite is like thinking anything's going to happen overnight or that it's going to happen easily. Really, just it takes time. But also like a lot of work and like a grander vision. And like a grander vision, I think having a larger vision of like where the business and practice are going will help you, will help motivate you for like the small, minutiae work that you have to do. So that's, that's my thing.

Emily Marson:

All right, I got one, I got one, not a couple of things actually. So not clearly communicating and in all sort of all aspects of the business. So, like the marketing side, if you're not like sort of what Gontay just said, if you are not clear about how you can help this person and that you are going to be the one the expert to help them, and that you are going to be the one the expert to help them, they won't trust you. Like, why would they trust you? Um, so a lot of times I have, like the content on my site has been changed over and over and over again over the course of literally every week, I'm changing the the words on my website to sharpen up the like what problem are we solving?

Emily Marson:

So, for example, so we have this movement studio and we have a separate website for it, and so I've been sort of dabb of it, said something like Pilates for women who are trying to conceive, and like that is not really problem centered. Like if you change it more to something like don't lose strength during pregnancy, like the problem is women feel like they lose their strength, and like the way that we're going to solve it is with this, with this movement studio, right, okay, right, um. And so I think a big lesson I mean marketing has been the biggest lesson not having that like how do you reach the people who need you? Like any business's biggest problem, um. And so I think things that haven't worked have been not being sharp on directing every piece of content towards what problem that we're solving.

Denzil Ford:

Such a helpful tip. It's so easy to think Me and my team all day we think about words. It's so easy to think that you're being so clear and then you get the response back and you're like oh, that wasn't clear at all and we have. I mean, we have anywhere from 15 to 22 people working on these words at any one time.

Denzil Ford:

So, and it's hard, it's really hard to actually be clear. I love how you call out that. You have been changing it all the time as you go. That's such a helpful thing, so thank you so much for saying that. So what's next for Aphrodite?

Ghoncheh Ayazi:

Wow, gosh, really Okay. The most acute thing in Chinese medicine we think a lot about, like acute and chronic, is getting our movement studio to be bumping um. There's emily, and I talk about this all the time. There's really like a shifting tide in how women view fitness, um, and what's actually hormonally supportive.

Ghoncheh Ayazi:

So it's really getting us in front of these women to to make clear that like we've got the secret sauce with feeling good in your body and, um um, soothing your nervous system at the same time making that profitable. That's the kind of like cute thing, gosh, bringing on another practitioner and having their schedule be completely full my and Emily's schedule is bursting at the seams as far as patient load, so having them be really full. And then, gosh, really sharpening our work as like a community center for women and having like lots of rich, like soothing, like offerings in our studio to have women feel like they're not alone, whether or not they're trying to conceive.

Emily Marson:

Yeah, I think, just again, like we going back to the mission is like reach as many women in this darkness. So that means, perhaps um long-term goals are to have um some sort of online developed course or um service where we can reach people outside of just the local touch. Um, or perhaps bringing Aphrodite to different states. I think that we have something that we're doing that's unique and that's needed outside of San Diego itself. And just like, how can we like embrace all those women who are suffering? I love it, let's go. Let's go help women, let's go.

Ghoncheh Ayazi:

We have women who travel here from out of state. Yeah, because they've heard of us in our work and they're going to be powerful. How do we reach those women?

Denzil Ford:

yeah, that's our main yeah, okay, my most important question are you going to play the piano music in the movement studio or a different soundtrack?

Emily Marson:

Okay, I mean, we've definitely thought about it, okay, so no, our Pilates studio is mostly Pilates. There's a couple of yoga classes and breathwork classes, but the idea is that it's ultra feminine, like it is here, and that it's new. You get the workout that you're looking for, because women want to feel strong, but the environment is nervous system regulating, and so the music is French walking music. I don't know if you've ever Googled that on Spotify.

Denzil Ford:

Wow.

Emily Marson:

Totally, totally. The lighting is this really beautiful? We use the Hue Phillips Hue light strip. I can send you the picture of the studio. But it is this really nice soft, warm yellows and pinks and you can adjust it a little bit, but it's dimly lit. The music is not at a level that's abrasive.

Emily Marson:

Oftentimes, studios and fitness have been based around men's nervous systems, right because, most of the time like gyms are run by men, so the lights are bright, the energy is like really loud and abrasive and it's almost like numbing instead of really like filling, and so, um, french walk music, really nicely dimly lit, but also you get a good workout. So it's's not. It's not soft in that it's, it's you're not getting the workout you want, but it is soft in in like in that it's, it's like a lovely experience.

Ghoncheh Ayazi:

Yeah, there was one that I attended, um, and the whole time during the class I was like I am on a retreat and I'm doing, like my morning Pilates, and like I'm in Greece. And after class, you know, I had this like vision in my mind of like going to come out to the veranda and there's going to be buffet of fresh fruits, like, and then I'm going to go for a dip in the ocean, like. That's where it took my mind and my nervous system, feeling that type of movement in that type of environment and that's exactly what we need.

Emily Marson:

so yeah, we had one review come through that was like it was like taking Pilates at the spa and I was like that's, that's it, that's what I want, that's exactly what we want.

Denzil Ford:

Yeah, yeah, oh, my goodness, I love it so much. Thank you both for being here today and being so vulnerable with what's going on inside your clinic and your, your mindset and your mission and everything. So I really appreciate your time and sharing with our listeners how you're making such a successful business.

Ghoncheh Ayazi:

So thank you very much, absolutely Thanks for having us. This was really fun.